Keys to the VIP: Guide to FL and PVP

Good start to a great write up Gazz.

I would add a few things.

1 Using stim potions and scrolls against stun builds probably is not going to be very successful. Most stun builds by defintion can drop their attacks wherever they want. You roll in with a potion / scroll and they will just knock it out when you try to use it. Don't depend on this too much.

2 You are correct to consider how skills grow not just their max. I usually mark skills primary and secondary. Skills in the same bracket I grow equally, skills in secondary brackets I grow at roughly half the lvl of the main skill usually to some form of cap I have decided on ahead of time.

3 Always play a formation you enjoy playing. It is easy to get distracted by the flavor of the month, but someone who truly loves playing a particular build will get much more effectiveness out of it than someone who is just playing it cuz "it's the best".

first of all gj Gazz, ur cool XD Raz u2, but less letters -> less cool^^ jk

Well, would be nice to see some info on those scroll and aoe effects in FL. Even tho i do fl alot - the last thing i look at is some scroll sign above enemie's head. Mb thats the cause of many of my losses. Well, explain em plz, all the effects and conditions of triggering.(btw what is that weird 'scroll sighn with blue letter B'? It appears sometimes but i still got no idea what it means)

Also ive seen somewhere info that mercs get additional AP if there is a free room in ur formation (less mercs -> higher ap regen for evryone).

You could also add info on best counter strategies and merc combos. Examples:

Arts have pretty much crappy ap regen, so if you see that art just attacked or used skill - ap drain him and then its pretty much a guarantee for x2 less stun pressure for next 1-2 turns, but that works only against hybrid builds, not vs pure stun builds.

gunner + vik combo is a mini stun build itself. Store ap for them for 1-2 turns with guarding or even skipping, then repeatedly unleash that ap in 3 turns. The key to succes here is phrase 'keep monk busy', dun remember who said it.. But i hope u got the point.

Spearmen r good for both stunning and disabling, cuz ap drain can disable a 2nd row merc for 1 or more turns(if drained more than once). Works best on mercs that u know have low ap, for ex used skill/attacked(or even being rotated after that) awhile ago. The key here is to learn to know how much ap enemy mercs have and how much ap skills need. Also almost always ap draining guarded mercs is useless, cuz they will still have enough AP to act in the next turn if needed. (i think would b nice to copy-paste here a small table of ap regens of mercs and ap costs of some most commonly used skills)

DO NOT use flame sword on other swordmen - they have fire resistance and a decent mdef also.

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Also would be nice to explain specifications of some skills, like that awakening becomes cross shaped after 2nd upgrade, or write conditions for casting silence can be casted.

Even tho most of things that ive suggested seem to be pretty much obvious for an average player, but still there are some things that i still dont know even tho i played 200+ fls and treat myself as a good player, not a pro tho.

Thanks guys!

This isn't meant to be used regularly, but in emergencies, you need them. I mean this when facing a stun build with light spears coming your way. You DO NOT want to be combo-2 and have your monk stuck at 99 AP. In situations like that, you've got to have a Stim ready to save your monk. Then have your monk save your whole party. I used to think they were useless but of all the matches i saw, and some of my own, if i had a stim, i could've turned the battle around.

Yeah, i'll be discussing FL situations more heavily as i go on.

Ideally i want to provide your "typical" formations so players would know how to deal with them. I know not all formations do the same thing, but hopefully this will help players know how to identify mistakes the enemy makes, and what mistakes they can avoid.

Thanks!!!

I made the first version of the guide. Check it out. :)

http://aop.muwing.com/guide/free-league-pvp-and-you-version-alpha

Added a formation that's the talk of the town. Including strategies of how they will be used against you. :)

http://aop.muwing.com/guide/free-league-pvp-and-you-version-alpha

Are the potions / scrolls instant or do they hang over your head for a turn like a standard potion / scroll? Cuz if they hang over your head yes getting that potion / scroll off might have changed the battle, but you never would have gotten it off.

If they are instant then absolutely you should pack one in a quick slot "just in case".

I don't agree with calling the Exo the butter. That implies that it is a "must have" merc for any build and frankly he just isn't. He is extremely niche and there are often much better mercs to take in his place. Mana seal only stops your opponent for 1 turn (you get two turns worth of beating out of it), but they are only denied their casters for one turn. This actually isn't even enough to stop Protect as that spell has a 2 turn duration and is cast by the monk every round. This changes to 2 and 3 turns respectively at one of his upgrade lvls, but still not worth putting him in just for that.

I have run several builds before my current that never even touched an Exo. They were actually more successful at PvP than my current (I blame pilot error ;) ). Use him for the niche he is good at, but he is hardly "must have". Mana seal while powerful is highly overrated and easily defeated / ignored if your opponent knows what they are doing.

The build types I do consider him nearly invaluable in are Snipe Builds, and heavy Magic User (as in the staff type merc) builds. But still it takes the right timing in a snipe build to make him effective. You are only hauling him along for his passive in the heavy staff build.

I'll update my guide accordingly for scrolls/potions. Scrolls are not instant and are cast on the next turn, I haven't had the chance to test out Stimulant but im pretty sure it works like using regular potions..
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Unless you AB-FL, then the Exorcist is not needed. Since the guide was meant for manual FL, he is needed.

Exo isn't there to stop Protect/SoP. Exo is there to stop the holy guard/awakening. If you rock out a stun build, you'll need the Exo to prevent monks, especially DMF from awakening. Imagine doing so much work to get half his party to combo-2, you'll be wishing you brought an exo along to seal the back row. Coz when you think about it, 1 turn of no monk can turn the match in your favor. The Seal also helps when you rely on AOE-DoT skills like Smoke bomb, War Cry, Ravaging Melody, etc.

Very true, but if you know how to use it, he'll make you win. Don't forget its not only Mana Seal that you think is half-baked. He has Speedcast, which allows your staff mercs to act pretty much every turn. You do not want a column in your party at combo-2 and have your monk start at 99-ap.

I call him butter because he's as valuable to you as a monk is valuable to your enemy. If you can work without him, that's good. You've got a good build and know how to use it too. :) but not everyone's like you, and i only remain resolved to call him bread and butter, because i have yet to see a high-div player, especially on Titan, fight without an Exo.

edit: the only situation i believe doesn't require an exo is a heavy spear build, that can drain the back row. Or like you said, a snipe/spike build so you can get silence in there. However its easy to think a strategy can work when you're thinking of your formation only, and not what your opponent is bringing along.

Actually I was saying that snipe build probably *should* have an exo (I am hesitant to say any build *has* to have any given merc so this is as close as I get). Snipe builds deal enough damage in a short period of time that an exo definitely can change the field. I actually just helped my wife get her exo because I recognized his potential in a snipe build. When that guy gets lvled I don't think I will be able to beat her in duels anymore. ;)

I have him in my current build mostly because I want speed cast for my monks / healer.

As to using it in a stun build. I wouldn't take an exo with me for a stun build. Replace the exo with a cannon and you will get more bang for your buck. Who cares if the monks cast awakening? Enough bombs fall on the monk(s) head(s) (don't splash them, center on the monk(s)) and they will stop casting (ie they die). Even if they don't, they will be spending all their time awakening themselves to avoid the stuns, and the healers will be scrambling trying to keep them alive. You just tied up 3 of an opponents actions every turn without diverting from your "plan" at all. Personally I would rather watch my enemy chase his tail, than deny him the chase and have him do something effective.

But all that said, it is your guide. I am not arrogant enough to think my opinion is the only one or that it is right without fail. If my case doesn't change your mind then I recognize I may be missing something. I thank you for at least listening to it though. ;}

Yeah i have a snipe build and exo seems like a must have to me. It really doesnt matter if it only lasts 1 turn, because the next turn hes stunned, and by the time hes unstunned hes sealed again... so the duration doesnt matter as long as you time it right :)

Razlath I value everyone and anyone's opinions. Whatever makes the guide better, i will use. :)

I guess i was too defensive with your opinion, but yes, i agree, the more offensive you are, the less support you'll need: ala kamikaze. Haha.

I guess we can agree that the Exo is more defensive in conduct, than offensive. :)

Will update the guide shortly. :)

I like the way you put that. With the exception of the snipe defensive builds tend to work better with Exos in my opinion. Large reason why I am sporting one in my current build. ;}

Snipe builds IMO are probably the most powerful users of exos. Because they cram so much damage into a short period of time, the short duration of the seal staff still allows for a ravaging amount of damage. These builds work extremely well if the monk is packing SoP (and is alone). In this case the exo turns off the monk and if ap has been hoarded correctly there is a good chance the main dies that turn (I am referring to a build packing at least 2 archers who have been allowed to build up 200ap). Against protect it takes a little more finesse, but is still deadly since protect has a duration and continues to provide the main benefits the whole time the monk is sealed. One thing to remember with protect, due to the way that beginning of turn effects happen the main is actually missing protect the turn *after* mana seal falls. So you can squeeze some nice damage in on that round.

I see people talk about how the monk is stunned after seal breaks. Unless your opponent allowed combo counters to remain on the monk this will not be the case. The duration simply isn't long enough. Any player who looks at your formation and sees an exo should never let a combo counter sit on their monk. Basing strategy on opponents making mistakes is a bad idea in general. Sure, capitalize when those mistakes are made, but never count on them. When you are considering skills assume your opponent will do everything perfectly to counter you. If you can still be successful then you are well on your way.

Many of the "my exo is invaluable" arguments are based around a series of events that require your opponent to make mistakes. You should add him when you don't need a mistake to make him valuable and leave him out when he only brings a game changer to the party if the opponent makes a mistake.

we're disagreeing.

First you left out the healers in the first bit, not being able to heal improves spike efficiency.

Ok so assuming that the enemy upon seeing the exo in your formation will be counting on the stun-lock, he'll be awakening as much as possible. Particularly the monk itself. At the cost of bringing him along you've already made the opponent dedicate 1 of 5 activations to the monk, while you have 5. Supposing you run a stun build, you should be spreading the stun across the entire formation, monk is primary but where the monk lives, the others will fall, one way or another. In the rare event that he should make a mistake and allow his monk to be stunned, he shall be punished with conviction. Otherwise, unless he can rotate his mercs well enough he can avoid losing the monk, but that just makes him work harder. Spike builds like you said benefit from the exo.

And don't forget Speedcast!!!! :)

I didn't leave them out, I relegated them to unimportant. ;} A snipe build could care less what healers you are packing. If they do their job right you will never get to use them. They have to worry about buffs that actually have an effect on their turn. This is what the exo is great at turning off.

I am not even sure we *are* disagreeing from the spike build perspective. It is saying that an exo is required in every build (that is what calling him butter means) that I disagree with.

I merely point out that many people base their love of the exo on him doing just the right thing while the opponent does just the wrong thing. If you remove that factor and look at him objectively his abilities have some serious holes. None of his abilities by themselves will change the battle drastically. However, he is great at punishing your opponent for that single mistake. When you combine his abilities with a mistake on your opponents side is when he can drastically change a battle one way or the other, but that could be said for several mercs. Can he inconvenience your opponent absolutely, can you often bring someone else along to do the job just as well, absolutely. Can your opponent see you have one and respond accordingly stopping much of his power, absolutely. These are true of pretty much all mercs.

Don't get me wrong, he is a good merc, and frankly IMO one of the strongest in the game. I look at every form I build and think, hmm could I squeeze an exo in here? Often times the answer is no, however he is one merc that I always consider. But he is far from required. ;}

And yes speed cast is cool, especially for DMF builds who need their monks active not sitting around on their thumbs. Once again, is it worth the required tag? Not at all, but definitely adds to his usefulness.

I could wax poetic about how cool the exo is, but that really wasn't what I was trying to say or really the point of this thread. In the end, it is your guide, and you are the one taking the time to put it together. You are the one that if someone disagrees they are going to PM and yell at. I am just trying to throw an alternate opinion out there in case it helps you to produce a well rounded guide. ;}

Oh man, now I get it.

I usually take my toast without butter, but the butter expression was just a means to encapsulate the value of the exo. ;)

Well it's a good write up, but I don't think you can really judge on builds, pvp and such, untill you've been in the 9- divs. I noticed myself, how it completely changed there. In div 10, i had streaks of 10 or more. In div 8, I can't even manage to win with my build. I revised it completely, and now I think I'll win more.

Winning a lot in higher divs means nothing. especially the ones around level 50-60. First one to master stunning wins there.

It's a good start really, but I'd say you need to put more own experiences in there, Atm it's like telling people how to write their thesis. You can't make an actual guide, but you can give hints and such. Mind you, it's a good start.

Some tips for expanding, Tell what the different mercs do, their strength and weaknesses.

Razlath, i am not counting on them making a mistake, maybe i made a mistake by making an assumption, but if the monk DOES awake himself, ill stun his front row. Even if hes double ill stun AND freeze the front :) so im not counting on him making a mistake... just to clarify

@Beastenator

If you read the bottom of my write-up, you'll see that i ask for everyone's help with submitting the guide. I'm doing heavy FL with a char (Gazz) i started from scratch, working my way up, based off what i learned from my div 8 alt. I completely sucked in it, so i took all those experiences, stuck it into my Gazz and worked my way up, with a good record. I'm toe to toe with a 10 level gap. It might not be much but im fighting against gear more than skill (IMO).

The guide is also for people to decide how to make their formations, and use them. I'm not making a series of "this worked for me, it will work for you" guide book. And its hardly finished. Agreed, its far from halfway. But if you notice that many posts here are regards to formations, i decided to try and write up this guide to help new players get familiar.

You want div-9 and up? Sure we'll get there. But don't think i'm going to write all about div-9 and up. You don't create a lvl 97 char on the get-go. And getting to div-9 and up takes time. I'm sure you'll agree with me there. At the most, at least it will prepare players for div-9 and so forth, so they don't get owned like you. I'm aware of how different it gets, but you always, always start at the beginning.

While i compile notes on experiences and do my best to bring to light formations and how they play out, you can help by doing the same. Keep the criticism constructive ala my conversation with Razlath and me. Although we have different points of view, there's no pride involved, because we both want the guide/etc to be helpful to all players that come across it. So if you can lower your pride, you can help me make this guide as helpful as it should, and im generous with my credit.

Overall thanks for the input. :) I do need to put more specific things. But its only the first part. I need comments from people to make sure it goes in the right direction.

@ Razlath
Give me a word that can sum up the exo so i could change it and get some neutral ground on it. The purpose of constructive argument is that we can arrive at a conclusion that better serves the general population. :)

@All

Things to look out for on next update:
-Razlath and Gazz Exo dispute: Resolved! will be updated soon.
-Return of the mad bow: (Thebes) is seeing alot of 2-3 bows in formations. Relation to range buff? and analysis.
-Small summaries to support existing guide for mercenaries (actual field performance)

Comments/Suggestions/Observations are all helpful.

those things should be just remembered buy each and evry pvp player in Atlantica.

Good way of thinking, ur guide will be even more awsome this way XD

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i myself wanna give a little input here by talking about position of witch.
First of all i think that having a witch increases chances of winning ONLY in case of putting her at right position.

Only way to make rotating of monk effective against stun builds is putting witch in center of back line - otherwise ur entire back row will be hitted by a cannon evry turn and u wont have a safe place for ur monk to rotate to, unless u rotate him "around witch" from one corner to another - the only safe way i see. (unless enemy doesnt have archers - in that case u can put monk in mid row sometimes and leave the witch in the center of formation for best countering of cannons).

Also rotating a monk might be a bad idea if u dont have ur own exo, cuz u need alot of AP for him in order to be able to awaken and move alot.

This way of thinking forms a rule for ur back line, if enemy has an archer in his stun build:
monk - witch - exo

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Also i have another small tip that i myself found useful, its about how to make freezing axe ignorable:
try to guard with mid line to make em store max ap till axe comes out and try to spend as much ap as possible with front line + [heal]/[awaken mid & back]. So when ur front line gets frozen - u can just remove those 2 or even 3(stunned alrdy) counters from front line and unleash all that stored ap in next 2 turns without a need of HOGing front. This also works best for front main.

PS

Man, so true...

Well you've been in the lower divs, so that judging doesn't really apply to you, don't take things personal, will you.

You should have continued with what you call your alt, refined the build you had there, that build, would be more you, and no doubt you'd do better. don't be upset when your new char doesn't get any farther either.

It doens't take time to get to div 9, if you stick with leveling and such, you get there with ease. Leveling takes time not advancing in pvp.

I said what I think about it, use it or drop it, but don't go whining about it.

I'm done with this.

Currently im in div 11 with a lvl 51. Its tough without an exo, but i can live without him. *winks at Razlath*

Yeah i agree, the witch completely throws the stunning when put in the right position, and I also ended up putting the witch in the backrow to stop the cannon fodder. :) Thanks for the tip.

Also against spike builds, no ground is really gained from sniping a witch in the back row.

About the ignoring the freeze axe. I think it could do well. There were situations when i left the front line frozen. But only in the event that im being threatened by stuns. The awakening doesn't have a large AP drain like HG.. The only thing with that is, it depends on what your formation is.. I think though all you need is to heal the front line, leave the freeze axe on them and concentrate on unleashing the midline. I'll see what i can work out tomorrow.. I'll put myself in that position, lol.

IMO FL starts fun and ends boring. Ndoors really need to do something about it, as more and more players end up ab-fl'ing for rank/fame/battle points. But its a component of the game that should still be fun. But its still such a negative attitude....

>> IMO FL starts fun and ends boring. Ndoors really need to do something about it

they will add new mercs, ive heard of 3 70+_to_get mercs to come and rock atlantica world XD

>> ab-fl'ing for rank/fame/battle points

Make a small review on this - ppl should know why-to-fl, not just how-to..

>> I think though all you need is to heal the front line, leave the freeze axe on them and concentrate on unleashing the midline.

all in all many things have been told on this site about hoging, wise rotating, guarding, timing counters and skills. This is nice to know but when it comes to practice u oftenly find urself out of AP. And when u have front line frozen with 150+ ap, mid line with -99 ap and u simply loose the turn (and prolly all the stun counters on enemy), and as we all know - loosing 1 turn can make u loose the game(that is what makes stun so greate and scarry).

Thats why ill keep coming with 'spoon-feed' tips, telling _exactly_ what why and when should b done to get/avoid some exact results.

3 new mercs are
Power Saw merc
Musician merc
is the 3rd Hwarang?

And i think they will be releasing it along with the 130 level cap.. thats almost 20b exp i think (or read in a random thread).

LOL yeah i should start it with "why you want to do this" haha.

About the theory bit, you're right. It gets difficult to conserve AP when thats what its usually all about. Hence the potions and scrolls etc. I really wanna try that out.

Yeah, its Hwarang. Also i believe theyll add not 'justs a musician' and 'not just a power saw' wiht same skills as mains have, its more like 'instrument user' and 'chainsaw user' but with totally diff tactical usage.

PS Power saw main + merc + BT + elementalist = gg to ur front line XDDDD

LOL!

Yeah i know they'll have different skills.. But as far as i know details are a bit sketchy (haven't been on AO forums in a while). But as soon as they come out they'll have a place in the guide lol.

PS. Archer + Bow Main + Hwarang = GG Kopanda! LOL

man, when i say 'your' i mean anyone...

I think the powersaw one was called the punisher, not sure tho.

yeah i think its punisher for chainsaw and enchantress for musician

Hmmm well I don't really know there is one word for the exo. I am not really sure I would even go that route personally.

Instead maybe just group the mercs by general effect and then list them in order of fitness for that role in that respect? That might actually help peeps more than anything when trying to decide what to build.

For example (not in power order don't have time on lunch break for that, just the order they come to mind):

Snipe Mercs (high damage on single targets only, or high damage single target magic attack):
Swordsman
Archer
Prophet
Pirate

Stun Mercs (mercs that innately hit multiple targets allowing for combo counter buildup):
Artillery
Cannoneer
Viking
Spear (by virtue of not just stuns, but AP drain when you don't need them to hit 2 peeps)
Beast Trainer
Gunner (and all their flavors, inv, jani, etc)

Control Mercs (mercs whose primary skills are more control oriented either on your side or your opponents)
Exorcist (speed cast provides more ap on your side ap = good, seal staff shuts down staff mercs temporarilty)
Prophet (not so much control per se, but with debuff skills might be able to weaken opponents attacks, and innate heal allows for using mercs to do stuff other than heal)
Princess (same thing not direct control, but debuffing skills and innate heal allowing more useful actions)
Archer (silence stops magic from any merc not just staff users)
Does elementalist belong in here? Not clear on her abils.

Tank Mercs (mercs who are great at absorbing damage and generally make good front liners)
Swordsman
Viking (only if holy guarded constantly, northern viking fixes this eventually)
Lady Knight
Beast Trainer
Spartan
Witch / Viking combo (place witch in front of viking, be sure merc adjacent to the viking is melee as well for axe strikes, witch absorbs magic, viking physical, not a huge fan of this idea, but see many people who swear by it).

AoE Mercs (mercs who are capable of delivering large amounts of damage to most if not all of a formation, some through direct damage (DD), some through Damage Over Time (DOT))
Musician (DOT)
Beast Trainer (DD-Magical)
Witch (DD-Magical)
Artillery (DD-Physical, DOT)
Cannoneer (DD-Physical, DOT)
Elementalist (not sure if she is DD-Magical and DOT or just one or the other)

Healing Mercs (mercs who can heal the party either innately or through skills)
Shaman (directed)
Oracle (directed)
Princess (innate)
Exorcist (innnate)
Prophet (innate)

There are probably mercs I forgot, and probably types of mercs I forgot too. But you get the idea. Basically expandig on what someone else said. By going on about a single merc (or even a couple) you are effectively telling people what to choose by selectively providing information. A newbie trying to use the guide to figure out what to do next wouldn't know enough to remove prejudice from the statements. Better to represent each merc with what they do and where they belong. I am more of a fan though of listing them by type as you can look at a list of mercs and what their skills are from the site itself, you don't need a guide for that. But if I am interested in building a stun formation I want to take a look over the stun mercs, the control mercs, the healing mercs, and the tank mercs. Then I want to pick ones that provide good synergy along my theme. For example, beast trainer and viking appear in both tank and stun sections. Viking comes with the note that he needs to be holy guarded so I now I know I need a monk. I think things that go boom are cool so I snag both cannon types. Now I am well on my way to a basic stun formation and I can customize from there.

Separating by groups is a good idea. Easier to understand what higher lvl mercs do, for example u alrdy know gunner, then u know that getting jani/inv will give u same stun effect, etc.

Add Musician to Stun group (able to stun 2 tragets 1 in mid and 1 in back row, very useful);
Why lk isnt in snipe also? Low dmg?(well, spike actually... snipe with a sword is a bad idea, cuz ull have to use fists the next turn, lol);
NVik -> tank;
Monk -> Control; healing;
Spartan -> aoe (warcry);
remove witch from tanks add to controls;

Yeah, like I said I knew some were missing.

I agree with most of your suggestions for groupings. Here are some thoughts though.

Musician could be added to stun, but really is a poor man's stunner much like a spear. I only put the spear in the group because they also bring AP drain when you don't need them to stun. Personally I would never take a musician for a stun build as there are other mains that do the job much much better. But as long as the mercs are ranked then it shouldn't be too misleading.

LK should be spike yes. Not 100% sure on her damage, but seems like she is an upgraded sword, so certainly belongs. I just forgot about her in that section.

Nvik is just a vik upgrade though so follows the same groups, no need to list him separate.

Spartan I would not call an AoE. Warcry only hits one row, and its effect is more control than damage oriented. I would however happily back him being listed in the control section as well.

Witch is only in tanks as part of the viking combo. That combo is seen as incredibly potent by some people so I wouldn't remove it. Let people decide if they want to use it or not. As to adding her to control, that makes sense. She can increase your parties mana as well as reduce your opponents. Both are in the "control" realm for sure.

Like I said the list is hardly complete, I really just meant it as an idea and then ended up typing a lot more than I intended. It is up to Gazz if he wants to go that route and what groups he puts mercs in. Mostly I was just trying to show kind of how I go about designing a build. First I decide on my goal (snipe, spike, stun, AoE, random theme, etc.), then I start evaluating mercs to see which ones seem to fit the overall goal the best. I think that thought process might help some peeps out when trying to design their formation.

Of course this delves deeply into formation building which may not be what he wants to include in this guide. I could certainly see how a case could be made for it being its own guide, or only lightly touched up on in his guide.

most thing about witch's tactical meaning is her position - move her and ur opponent will have alot of head ache.

Musician is a lil bit better than a spear cuz he can stun 2 targets behind front row that r usually hitted by bt/vik. Back rows can be hitted by cannon but i believe that mus does more direct damage than cannon with normal hits and much much more aoe in comparisson with cannon also. Tho cannon lowers def but u can get a merc for that (soon ill start lvlin my secret musician formation and will see how good stunner musician is;)

front Witch+vik combo is a lil bit of control imho (or formation planning, not merc's personal attribute), btw ive suggested to write effecient combos in this topic be4. In fact placing witch in almost any cell gives u diff kind of advantage. The world is spinning around her XD

~
Yeah its up tu Gazz but i dont think we make his work harder by discussing stuff here, in fact i think its a good help.

Also adding combo and merc revues is a must for pvp guide, not like 'he might add or not'.. well he may not add but.. i dunno this will be a mistake XD

On the other hand reviews may b small or bigger, now this is rly up to him.

I like Razlath's idea about grouping the merc into "types" based on what they do best. Although I would add a few things to the Witch (DoT and Control) due to Mana Trap, it slows down builds that rely on Seth/Brutal Will and does a little DoT. Maybe a little more definition is needed (i.e. what skills put the merc in that catagory, or is it a normal attack). When I have a momment I'll get a list of all the mercs and thier skills with an indicator on what "catagory" if any that skill could be used for.

My build is DoT/AoE, I had a mix of stun and spike, but I have changed that to more spike (took out the stun support). Once I added Mana Trap to the Mix, my DoT is now slowing people down in FL in my div (7/8).

(my 2 cents)

Good idea on listing exactly what makes them fall in that category. That will also help people to decide what skills to grab as well. If you have time to do that then it probably would be a big help to Gazz.

I am still concerned that Gazz's FL guide is going to get too bogged down with formation info. Perhaps he wants to build a formation building companion guide to go with it, and just stick to FL basics in the FL guide. Really there are already 2 other guides you should read if you are serious about FL as well. Those are the ones on how skill counters work and how to manage your AP. Perhaps the FL guide should stick to explaining FL and a formation guide is more appropriate for deep diving into formation building.

*shrugs* Not sure. I don't really have time as I only haunt the boards when I have a little down time at work and during lunch, so couldn't hope to produce a guide. Thanks to everyone who actually does though, a good guide can change the entire game.

As to calling the musician a stunner, I can see how it could be, but still is the poor man's stunner. I personally would never take one in a stun build. In an AoE build they are undoubtedly better than a cannon, but stun build not so much. If I was running a hybrid stun / aoe build then I might select the musician, but frankly I wouldn't build a hybrid build so haven't given that too much thought. Everyone has their favorite, you really have to divorce emotion from it. Simply put the cannon owns the musician when it comes to stuns and the musician owns the cannon when it comes to AoE. You take the right tool for the job if you are after effeciency.

Been away for a bit, got bogged down with RL matters. Anyway, back to business.

Haven't been working on the guide, but the times i do play, I'm in the FL gathering data (and losses too *sob*) for the purpose of making the guide good enough to go by.

I think the grouping is a good idea. It should be great for designing formations based around understanding roles and types. I'll be sure to leave an endnote stating that any merc is not binded to a particular role (e.g witch, lk) can be used for many things. Although the fallback will always be AOE, tank respectively.

On the 2 other guides, my guide only supplements them,i didn't want to get into too much detail about AP and skill counters, but only to provide pointers. Sort of like a reference.

My guide is meant to show all the weapons in your arsenal when it comes to FL, and the basics on using them to ensure greatest probability for success. :)

Thanks for all the help, it will be moving on shortly (after i ghost through the other threads)

and the formations will very well bog me down, since a patch can create a whole new spawn of builds, etc.

I added the DMF and hope to add a few more, simple formations to get an idea for designing a build. Such as the basic snipe build, stun, etc.

Added more info regarding scrolls, potions, and other simple aspects. Working on the groupings also, but will add that after its complete. :)

LINK

Something that might help is when you are listing basic build types, also list what a good anti-strat for the build is.

Sometimes there just really isn't one for your build type, and in those cases how to utilize your build to stall as long as possible and hope for a point win.

For example:

The unbeatable DMF (no it isn't unbeatable but peeps seem to think it is).
This form lynchpins on having both monks up and active. If you can remove one or both monks from the battle you can usually break the formation down. The key is to lob as much damage into a single monk at a time while hitting the other monk at least once per turn. If you can time this with the drop of a holy guard on them all the better. If they don't or won't holy guard the monk, try to give them some incentive by putting your nastiest dot on him (great target for hell flame if you have it). Overwhelming damage behind the enemy lines is the primary key to bringing this type of build down.
AoE formations will probably just have to ball up and try to stall on this one. Focus on not letting your opponent get more points than you. Try to keep your mercs alive rather than actually AoE the enemy. Keep your points up by using high damage attacks whenever possible and avoiding those attacks yourself.
Snipe Formations will probably have the easiest time against this type of build. Their ability to pump an obscene amount of damage out in just a few short turns should overwhelm whatever healing they have. Identify the SoP monk first and focus fire on him. Do what you need to in order to keep yourself alive, but focus whatever you can on that one monk. If you are packing an Exo a timely seal staff could seal the deal. Once that monk is down, focus on the main. It will take a while to chop through the first monk as well as the main, so you can't afford to mess with any other mercs. Don't worry about protect, it is very easy to power through it. Use what dots you can on the main to force a holy guard removing protect entirely and giving you free reign to bring the pain.

So basic example based on what I have seen of DMFs and other builds. No an AoE will not auto lose, and a Snipe will not autowin. As we have stated many times, the pilot matters a lot on both sides of the fence. I have had off days where I did everything wrong and died to an AoE build 5 lvls lower than me (across an armor tier too) and I am DMF. Sometimes things just don't break your way or your timing is off. That is part of what makes it so much fun. No battle is predetermined.

Its guys like you that give life to the dull FL. You should switch servers to Thebes. :p

Yep, the anti-strat was the idea, but im trying to avoid giving out cookie-cutters. As much as possible i want to give the right information so players aren't designing builds to counter others.

But at the end, its the player. :)

What you wrote is a good example for tactics, which is the 2nd part of the guide. :) Allow me to cut up and paraphrase so i can include it. :)

I'm working on the merc list/skills vs roles. I have the swords done (I only have a few min a day to work on it).. this is my format (in excell)... Weapon / Merc Name / Level obtainable / Skill / role (spike/Dot, etc) / ranking. On the ranking it is MHO and subject to change, I am currently using a 1-5 ranking system. Under skills for each merc I am also listing physical attack, since the physical attack and the skills of a merc could have different roles. I will try to post what I have when I can get it on the net.

I think for the skills I can just implement pointers so the player can scoot over to the skills tables Muwing has already made, although stats are still being sought after.

We can compare notes after but my table will be broken down in categories of roles, maybe with the last one being multi-role, with the mercs falling in them. The rating is good though, we can probably get a healthy debate over proper rating. Or actually expand the rating to cover the aspects of the merc.

Sample:
Spearman
Attack: 5
Defense: 3
Mdef: 1
etc etc.

The spearman has great attack power and column (2) suppression. Plays the role of high physical damage dealer with an AP draining skill for locking down the enemy's mercenaries. Can assist with the stun efforts, as he can hit the 2nd row with his normal attack.

Favorite Skill: Lightning Spear, [insert skill description/summary]
Analysis: Great for draining the AP of an opposing column. Hero upgrade allows lightning spear to reach the back row. Recommended to be effective.

Other Skill(s): Deadly Strike
Analysis: Last ditch effort on a dying spear to inflict massive damage on a single target.

Thoughts? Could be expanded to make those bubble charts like in most games. But im not a good artist. :p

edit: Added combos Hell Flame, Destructive Wind, will get the others when i get back into the game this weekend. and YES it does has a place in the guide because last week i saw alot of Hell Flame hitting my monk. And some builds actually get a little bit of help from combos.

One of the mistakes I have seen a lot is to use the scrolls on the merces who are combo+2 already. this means the scrolls can be removed with just 1 shot rather than 3.

Suppose i used a scroll on a merc that was combo-2, does the icon have 2 red gems or 0?

Good find, never noticed that, as i never have my scrollers reach combo 2. So if they're combo 1, it only takes 2 shots?

This could resolve kopanda's question about scroll canceling, as to why sometimes it only takes 1-2 hits to cancel a scroll and not 3.

i think the point is that if u have a merc on combo-2 1 hit makes it stunned therefore cancels the scroll. So a merc with combo 1 wouldnt be stunned from any amount of hits in a round so u would need the full 3 hits to cancel the scroll.

also if u use a scroll on a combo 2 merc u still get the 2 red gems in it.

Just verified. When scrolling, regardless what combo count is on, it requires 3 hits. HOWEVER. These 3 hits can be done by 1 merc. e.g. a gunner hits a scroller twice, 2 gems are dropped. Meaning 3 hits cancels it, not 3 mercs like what was believed before. :)

Exo and Monks are a must in all Div 1 PVP teams, no matter what people believe. They are absolutely needed to counter stun and to aid in stun application and skill spiking.

Healers are not needed. Some Div 1s actually feel that Active healers, like Shaman and Oracle, are a burden b/c it drains an activation.

This is what i've been picking up from FL post level 50.

AP generation becomes the most critical aspect of PVP...

Thats why i suggested to add Lightning priestess XDDD

Just to clarify : lvl 11 awakening removes 2 stun counters but, when already frozen (= stun combo 3), does it then go back to stun counter 1 or do you need lvl 21 to totally "unstun" your mercs ?

Double post.

COmbo from stun isn't really a combo. Awaken will not purify the freeze. It will only completely remove stun. Basically, the combo 3 reduction from Awaken 21 is redundant.

You forgot a few combos.

Bombing Attack: Cannoneer Smoke Bomb + Princess (Any Signet) = Decent spike to any range hit by the Signet used. Signet and Smoke Bomb will be cancelled. At max lvl 70 Combo, it does aaround 5k to all hit mercs. Smoke Bomb must be cast first otehrwise the combo will not work.

Bursting Beams: Destructive Wind (Chaos Wind then Break Down) + Evanescent Scud. Unleashes a strong AOE attack. Destructive Wind must be set up first. It is best to let Wind deal out as much DOT damage as possible before using Scud because the AOE is only about 500 points stronger than the DOT.

Schizo(something. I forget how to spell it): Mana Trap + Seth/Brutal will. Damages and heavy Mana Drains a unit that gets Seth/Buutal will cast on it. Mana Trap must be cast before Seth/Brutal is. This was the old way to nullify Seth/Brutal before Spartans came out.

Funny that I have seen several Div 1 players without Exos. You should be careful before stating something is required when it isn't. Exos are very powerful, but there are builds that can effectively run without an exo. You have to evaluate exactly what the merc you would replace him with brings and how you can use that.

You also have to approach things with an open mind and consider all the ways that mercs can be used. No single merc is required at any lvl of play. Some make things easier, some work better in certain combinations, and some are so situational that all anyone ever remembers is the one time the stars aligned and they pulled off some amazing win because they had such and such. They quickly forget all the battles that such and such sat there absorbing activations and not doing anything because everything wasn't aligned perfectly.

I have seen div 2 and 3 peeps with no monks, but frankly only once or twice. One of the battles neither side had a monk, and neither was a heavy stun build, so it seemed to work out well. In the other the person without the monk was not facing a stun build and the lack of a monk didn't seem to hinder them too much. Still, I can't imagine rolling without one, just seems like you are auto-giving up a battle against a stun build, but I do recognize that is personal preference and some peeps may choose to go without.

It is an important lesson to remember. No single build auto-wins in this game, and no single merc is required. That is not to say all mercs are created equal, just that there are enough poweful mercs that the answer on which ones to take is not pre-determined.

First of all, were you watching Manual or ABFL? Second of all, if you were watching Manual, how long do those players stay in Div 1 w/o a Monk/Exo and when not fighting doppels/other random monkless teams?

There has yet to be a player that can perpetually stay in div 1 Manual FL w/o both a Monk and Exo and all while not fighting doppels. The random streak against the top 2 players in Div 1 do not count. If you count teams up to before the physical nerf, then yes, there have been, but that was because raw physical damage took out a team before Stun could even be layered.

Sorry evan, didn't realize you watch every server every battle in div 1. I stand corrected. Curiousity, how do you manage that? I mean with like 6 servers all doing FL at the same time, and 1 or 2 matches on each server running at the same time, how do you manage to watch them all?

I freely admit that I do not watch every battle and track every match. Since I saw monks doing intelligent things consistently (like not attacking and using skills usefully) during those battles I assume it was not AB (not sure how else to know). But of course since I don't watch every battle and you do then what I witnessed doesn't count.

I mean seriously? You are going to sit there and continue to espouse your opinion as the only fact when there is no way you watch every single battle all the time? How do you know someone hasn't stayed at div 1 for any reasonable time without an exo? I don't know if they have or have not. I sure as heck don't know if they faced doppels or not and I seriously challenge whether you know the same thing. I have other things to do in game than watch 2 matches simultaenously (which to my knowledge is impossible) to see if they are using an exo this time, while updating my massive note list telling me whether someone faced a doppel or not and how many times they have won in a row.

I only watch battles when I join a FL late and have to wait for my turn to play or when a guildy specifically mentions facing a tough fight. I can say that I have seen a few times a battle between what appeared to be real players where one of them did not have an exo, and have even seen the person without the exo win. Did they lose their next 3, heck if I know. I don't pretend omniscience when giving my opinions, I am honest about what I have personally seen and only speak from personal experience. Funny enough all it takes is one person to break your *required* flag anyway. And I am sure it has been done at some point. That is the problem with saying something is required. Unless the mechanics make it so (ie you can't join a FL without an exo) you can bet someone has broken the *required* rule at some point.

Exorcists are NOT required, they are just extremely useful and many people run with them. Many of the ones that do don't even know what to do with the exo anyway and would be better served by a different merc they do know how to use. But instead they listen to people tell them it is required, so they put him in the party. Then he just sits there wasting activations because he either doesn't really fit, or they don't know how to make him fit. You should consider exactly how you are going to use every merc, and should also consider general usefullness (as in every turn) and not the niche omg such and such merc just saved my butt once so all those 100 battles that they sat there being useless are worth it!

Razlath need to break it to you but exo is important if u want to be considered serious. YES u can win without one in div 1 and that is becase you are high lvl and have average/better equpment (+1 or +2 nix will do) or even +3-+4 darkest night and you are facing lower lvls.

without exo u can never stun any merc on the opponent. its because you can use awaken every turn and while having exo in your team u can even use awaken 2 times after 3 turns. since it takes 3 atacks to get a merc stunned u will never be able to stun a merc..

Now let me tell u how you can use to permanently seal monk... u will think i am lying but i will go through it just so you can understand how important exo is. providing that you have enough range mercs...2 range will do the trick pretty nicely..(to me that's not asking much at all)

My turn: atack monk (and dont waste your other range mercs ap by atacking since u got 2 range..) (counter 1 on monk)
Your turn: u use awaken counter 0 on monk)
my turn: atack monk again (counter 1)
your turn: u don't awken use holy gaurd or what ever: to make this i like to freeze front row so they will use hg on front row
my turn: mana seal (with EXO) and atack monk (counter 2 on monk) (exo has 0 skill counter cause he just used mana seal)
your turn: UH OH....u can't use magic skills on your monk...:O
my turn: atack monk...combo 3...stunned (exo has 1 skill points)
your turn: SOL cause monk is stunned
my turn: atack monk again (combo 1) exo(has 2 skill points)
your turn: still stunned....
my turn: your monk is not stunned any more... exo has 3 skill points hence mana seal comes + atack monk..(combo 2 on monk)
your turn..: SOL again can't use awken...
my turn: atack monk once more to stun him...

lather rinse and repeat...

also....if u say that monk will use HG on it self then what? then u gotta wait it out :) just have combo 1 before the hg goes off....then the other person has to awaken...if they hg again...then next 2 turns u can stun the monk...if my language is bad then let me explain..

my turn: atack monk (counter 1)
your turn: hg is gone.... you hg again
my turn: atack monk (counter 2)
your turn..can't use skills on monk..cause he is in hg state
my turn: atack monk = stun counter 3...

also, i msut add when u do mana seal...it stopes PROTECT AND SOP...and.........when the monk is stunned SOP AND PROTECT are not used...HENCE not only u permanently stun monk...u can prevent SOP and protect.

i hope this guide has put some sense into u...and if u don't think it is possible to atack 6 times with 3 mercs...then u r dead wrong...especially when you have an archer with high ap and another gun... u don't usually atack in fl till 3rd turn...cause first turn is 1 merc...(if you go first) 2nd is use 2 mercs and so on...so atack by 3rd turn and u can permanentlly stop monk...after 2 times stunning him..u should have done alot of damage to other mercs...ie front row..cause they will be stunned also...if u keep atacking them..and u do know that stun mercs takes more damage than non stunned mercs...that's all sorry for the rant...u can even try out the stun thing i posted and YOU NEED A EXO TO STUN..that's that..other wise awkening with 75 ap....u can keep casting.

SO in the end i conclude with this...with exo u will force your opponent to cast awakening every turn...hence wasting the opponent's turn and then u r free to cast spells dots..and aoes...with duel monk..it becomes tricky..but there are times when you can cast mana seal even on duel monks...just remmber you just need 1 counter to stun with exo...simple rule will take u far...

that's my two cents....about this topic

agree 100% with theone
also an exo is there to boost ur monks ap
45-75 ap=u may not be able to awaken every turn

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